Glen Scrivener recently posted a great post on why when doing theology we should start with the Trinity, not with any general teaching about God. I must admit I've been largely sold on this over the last few years, and found that while people may not practice it, nobody ever seems to disagree with the basic idea that the Trinity is where we should begin.... that was up until very recently, when I came across a confident broadside against it in the most surprising place.
Oswald Bayer notes that starting with the doctrine of the Trinity "is the pattern that is followed by an ever-increasing number of dogmatic theologians throughout the world" (p. 335, Martin Luther's Theology; A Contemporary Interpretation). But this is not something which he approves of. He describes as "one of the grandiose blunders of the more recent history of both philosophy and theology" (p. 339)!
He believes that the doctrine of the Trinity is "properly located neither as a bland addition nor in the middle as just one dogmatic theme among many, but correctly in the middle and correctly at the end" (p.334). The reason for this is that "the triune nature of God can only be comprehended only as an unfolding of the pure gospel" (p.335 - reminds me of the title to Tim Chester's Theology Network, "The good news of the Trinity"). He sees a number of problems if we start the doctrine of the Trinity. E.g:
- "if one proceeds in such a way, one will come dangerously close to... a brand of speculation that ignores time and the situation" (p.335)
- it "ignores or minimizes the problem of unfaith" (p.335)
- it has no place for the sufferer's experience of God as his seeming enemy, or take seriously the "reality of evil".
The basic problem though is that those who want to see the Trinity placed at the beginning see what is first in theology as the most fundamental. They are always concerned that we fit what follows to what comes before, and that much theology has fit the Trinity into the procrustean bed of a Unitarian view of God. However, a Lutheran who believes in law and then Gospel believes that what follows is the more fundamental. The Lutheran believes the good news is a surprise.
Bayer believes that we should begin with "'general' teaching about God", but not because he thinks that the Trinity is subsidiary. He has no love for the God who is not Trinity. "The God who comes to us apart from being the triune God, who is purely and completely love, 'looks on,' and has for us the grimace of the devil" (p.338). General teaching about God, even a monotheistic God, is something that belongs to the non-Christian and will be left behind in eternity.
The distinction between what is involved in the teaching about the Trinity and "general" teaching about God [...] is encountered in faith and in the hope that this distinction will be removed, along with the distinction between law and gospel, in the eschaton. The the triune God - he alone - will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28). Then we also will no longer be assailed by the oppressive, incomprehensible hiddenness that weighs us down even to the point of our death. It will be consumed by open love which itself cannot be comprehended, which will free us from its power and which comes to us conclusively already now in the gospel.
The end that we believe in and hope for, because of the love that has come to us and has been promised to us - the consummation of the work of creation by the triune God - is misinterpreted with regard to its true character when it is claimed that it exists as a timeless principle of knowledge and existence. Its universality cannot be demonstrated in the abstract, not even with theoretical means linked to the Trinity; one cannot apply its truths to every circumstance one can postulate and treat it as an a priori. (pp.339-340)
Glen and others (hi Glen!) are driven by their conviction that we should start all our thinking about God with the Trinity to argue that the Trinity was fully understood by the OT saints. Hence the regular 'Angel of the Lord' etc debates. But while a Lutheran would admit that the Trinity was seen in the OT, just as the Gospel was preached in the OT, they would also want to retain a distinction because:
just as the chief teaching of the New Testament is really the proclamation of grace and peace through the forgiveness of sins in Christ, so the chief teaching of the Old Testament is really the teaching of the laws, the showing up of sin, and the demanding of good. (Martin Luther, Preface to the Old Testament)
For Oswald Bayer there is always a shape and a story to the Bible and to our lives. He sees those who start with the doctrine of the Trinity as flattening the contours of this story, and so missing out on the depths and the heights of the Bible's message about God.
... I must confess its shook up all my thinking. Who knows how it will all settle again.
[A few asides: (a) it is interesting to note that Karl Barth was led the way in both making the doctrine of the Trinity at the beginning of theology, and in arguing that we should deal with Gospel then law. (b) It is also interesting how those who start with the Trinity always seem (IMHO) to be struggling to not say that creation and redemption were necessary for God. (c) In The Cruciality of the Cross PT Forsyth argues that the Atonement (i.e. the Gospel) drives us to the Incarnation, not the other way round. But it could be equally said of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Gospel drives us to the Trinity from our point of view, even if the Trinity is what leads to the Gospel from God's point of view.]
hi dave
ReplyDeleteinteresting insights, but I'm unable to contribute. This discussion is rather beyond me! :S
What does it mean to "start" or "begin"?
Do you find the terms economic/immanent helpful here?
Hello!
ReplyDeleteSorry, been remiss in my blogging rounds.
Just a couple of thoughts:
* I think (if these things can be distinguished) I'm into beginning with *Christ* more than beginning with Trinity. And I think the Athanasian stuff on that is hard to argue with. This might answer Chris's question about 'start' or 'begin'. A definition of deity that can't cope with Christ's distinct Person-hood in the beginning is never going to accommodate it later on. But of course once you've said that, you've begun with trinity.
* The dangers of a 'necessary' creation and redemption seem much greater on Bayer's side, don't you think? If trinity is in the middle and at the end and depends on the unfolding of the gospel then don't we have a 'necessary' redemption. Now depending on your definition of 'necessary' that's not the worst problem in the world - but 'beginning with trinity' is not the trouble. In fact, beginning with the 'primordial plenitude' (gotta love Webster's phrase) of the triune life seems a very good safeguard against some Hegelian divine dependence on the world.
* Don't forget Abraham! Gal 3 - the new covenant is older than the old. Surely it's gospel-law-gospel. Therefore the God of Abraham is the gospel God - the triune God.
Hi Chris,
ReplyDeleteIf I've entered a discussion that is beyond you then I'm in trouble. As for what it means to "start" I think it is all about how you tell stories really.
Obviously, before everything there was God who is Trinity, but we don’t have to tell a chronological story from God’s point of view - a foolish thing to try in some ways because we don‘t understand the mind of God (Note how the Bible importantly resists telling us God’s thinking behind certain actions, e.g. creation, when we probably would have).
Glen is saying that he wants to start telling stories with Christ, then Trinity, and I think that's certainly better than starting with a pre-defined understanding of Trinity. I also think Glen is with the best people here. We only know the Trinity through Christ (which is what Bayer is saying as well). But this is not telling the story in a strict chronological sense. Its starting in the middle with Christ, and then jumping back to the beginning to tell the whole story through to the end.
An alternative story could be: This is your situation without Christ (both from your perspective, and from God's). You have no mediator and no hope of resurrection life. BUT NOW, Christ died and was raised for you. We now know that God is three persons in perfect relationship of love.
BTW I'd just like to admit that I haven't made up my mind on how you should tell the story best, or quite what the consequences are of whichever way you do it.
Hi Glen,
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologise. You don't have any duty to do the blogging rounds. There's other things in life, and these things can wait.
In response to your thoughts:
1. Sure, if we don't begin with Christ then we won't be able to cope with Christ. But is that a problem? Can't we allow Christ to be foolishness to the world, in contradiction to all we know of God apart from him. Apart from Christ God is our enemy, and stands as one in opposition against us. In Christ we enter into the divine life of the Trinity. Outside of Christ we are outside of that life and God looks different to us. He no longer looks like a Trinity of persons, but as one monarchical power standing against us. Both views are right (although one is more "right" than the other). They are just from different perspectives.
Also, as we mentioned the other day, it is not "bare knowledge" of Christ that reveals the Trinity, but being united in him. Knowing the Trinity requires salvation.
But there is a knowledge of God without salvation. It must not know God as Trinity though. Nevertheless it is still a true knowledge, in some way. There is a knowledge of God which the sinner has. But there is no getting from this knowledge to the knowledge of God that the saint has... as you say Christ just can't be fitted into this knowledge of God. But that is the way it should be. There should be a total disjunction between God against us, and God for us. The only place they meet is in the work of Jesus. There is never going to be a way of resolving the two logically.
Embrace the paradox! Embrace the 180 degree turnabout! To quote Bayer again:
"God's love [and so Christ/the Trinity] is not something that is obvious in and of itself; it can be experienced and conceptualized only in the dynamic action of God to provide redemption which tears the sinner away from judgment "as if through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). His mercy and love is that which we have no right to claim, that which is completely secret and wondrous: that he turns to go the other way and repents (Hos 11:8-9)" (p. 336)
We've talked about it before, but why not let the revelation of Christ and the Trinity be a revelation of a mystery as Paul describes it?
2. Yes I like Webster on this (although I've only heard him lecture - not read him). But I think a necessary creation and redemption is only a danger under Bayer's system if you think that it is necessary for God to be known/related to.
3. Aww Glen you're too many things I could say about Abraham. Here's just a couple:
(i) was it really the 'new covenant' that Abraham had, or was in the promise of the new covenant? If not why is the new covenant the 'new' one?
(ii) OK, the promise came before the Mosaic law, but sin and death proceeded him and that‘s more fundamental.
(iii) "before faith came" = before "Christ came" (Gal 3:23f). Something changed in our relationship with God with Christ’s coming.
(iv) Even if we grant the gospel-law-gospel story (which is compelling: a friend in church likes to summarise the Gospel as good news(creation)-bad news(fall)-good news(redemption)), the question is where are we in that story? I think we are cruising the law-gospel hyphen. We're not in the position of God surveying history, but in the position of a sinner-saint in the movement of one to another. That's what Bayer means by ignoring "the problem of unfaith" (c.f. the first para of the Bavinick quote here).